To remove or not to remove the dashcam in hot weather

[Dan2]

Too bad? ......Not sure why you have a problem with using a RTC batterry in dash cams. It has been a reliable solution that has been used in most dash cams for many years now. Real Time Clock batteries do fail eventually but they tend to last quite a while and they are rechargeable batteries, so they get a boost every time you drive your car and so they can store the date and time for long periods of time. By comparison, if you were to use a super-capacitor to back up your camera's time and date (it's been done) you would lose the date and time settings if you don't drive your car for several days or more.

So what if you lose time after several days? Most car radios do that. A simple solution would be to just read it from the GPS on bootup.

BTW, I don't "have a problem" using the battery. Is just not the most elegant solution and as you said it forces obsolesce for consumers that might not want that.

 

[Dan2]

Those green things are super capacitors.
What are you talking about?

View attachment 71885

What is that you are talking about???

 

[Dashmellow]

So what if you lose time after several days? Most car radios do that. A simple solution would be to just read it from the GPS on bootup.

BTW, I don't "have a problem" using the battery. Is just not the most elegant solution and as you said it forces obsolesce for consumers that might not want that.

I have to disagree. Losing the time on a car radio is really not a significant problem in comparison a dash cams are recording evidence. Loading from GPS at boot-up may or may not adjust for DST if it doesn't remember your time zone and it can take quite awhile after you leave your house in the morning for the GPS to re-populate the date and time. Personally. I want may cameras to be fully operational by the time I leave my driveway.

Where in my post did I ever say that, "it forces obsolescence for consumers"? Please don't put words in my mouth ! On the contrary, having a battery back-up for your date and time data that usually lasts for the life of the camera is a no-brainer, which is why the entire dash cam industry engages in the practice.

BTW, "having a problem" is just a figure of speech regarding being dissatisfied with something.

 

[Dan2]

I have to disagree. Losing the time on a car radio is really not a significant problem in comparison a dash cams are recording evidence.

If the camera is recording, the for sure it won’t do that powered by the little button battery, so how will it lose time?

Loading from GPS at boot-up may or may not adjust for DST if it doesn't remember your time zone and it can take quite awhile after you leave your house in the morning for the GPS to re-populate the date and time. Personally. I want may cameras to be fully operational by the time I leave my driveway.

There are lots of programming techniques to solve this. Not sure why you think otherwise.

Where in my post did I ever say that, "it forces obsolescence for consumers"? Please don't put words in my mouth ! On the contrary, having a battery back-up for your date and time data that usually lasts for the life of the camera is a no-brainer, which is why the entire dash cam industry engages in the practice.

@Panzer Platform mentioned that the battery has a limited lifetime but made it seem as a non issue since the technology moves such that the consumer would want to upgrade anyway regardless if they want to or not. That is forced obsolescence.

BTW, industry norms are just that. They’re not necessarily driven by what’s best, but rather by price or path of least resistance.

 

[Panzer Platform]

What is that you are talking about?

I’m talking about RTC batteries in dash cams are the established, and accepted industry standard.
I think they’re also required to keep all your settings in the camera so it doesn’t revert to default settings every time it boots up.
There is nothing “too bad” about RTC batteries, almost all dash cam manufacturers are using them.

A simple solution would be to just read it from the GPS on bootup.

Setting date & time solely from GPS signal would be problematic.
I see reports from users here complaining their dash cams sometimes don’t get GPS signal for up to 30 minutes of driving.
This would also not work for folks who park in multi-level structures, underground parking, or surrounded by tall buildings, or terrain blocking GPS signal.

That is forced obsolescence

As far as planned / forced obsolescence the dash cam only needs to outlast its warranty period.
After the warranty expires the manufacturer owes you nothing, and you got your money’s worth.
If the camera still works after the warranty period your’re basically getting “free use”.
I’m starting to off topic, and rant so this is my last post.
Sorry for that.

 

[grubisic]

. . .
I’m starting to off topic, and rant so this is my last post.
Sorry for that.

no need to be angry. Through discussion, we all learn, come to new knowledge, and broaden our horizons. That's why I expect you to continue the discussion.

 

[Nigel]

I think @Nigel said they last around 5 years, by that time you most likely want to replace the camera due to advancements in image quality.

I don't think I've ever given a time for an RTC battery, I don't know how long they typically last, but I would consider 5 years to be too short.

If used at normal room temperature then I would expect the Viofo ones to last maybe 20 years, but in the heat of a car, I would hope for 10 years before you started loosing the time, given that the car is driven more than once per week (they are rechargeable).

We do hear of failures on some cameras only a few years old, but normally on specific cameras models and only on a small number of cameras, so I assume some quality issues with the batteries themselves, maybe also heat related, and certain cameras could have been designed better.

Those green things are super capacitors.

Yes, the RTC battery is silver.

So far, I have not been able to find a single camera that would work at over 60-65C, regardless of whether it is with a capacitor or a battery.

I am not sure what those temperatures you are quoting mean, are they outdoor temperature, as given by the weather forecast, car internal temperature, dashcam surface temperature, dashcam internal temperature?

If they are car internal temperatures then they don't mean much because on a hot day there is a big difference between seat height temperature and mirror height temperature, and the result will depend a lot on how reflective your windscreen is to UV and IR light.

I might assume that they are the oven temperatures that the dashcam has been tested at, except I know that some manufacturers test a lot hotter than the temperatures given in the specifications.

In reality, dashcams with super capacitors are designed and tested to be left on the windscreen in all conditions and most work fine for many years, while dashcams with batteries are designed knowing that their battery will fail after around 18 months, unless they are demounted on hot days, and normally with the company selling them being very happy to sell you a replacement, or refurbished unit when they do fail! Some companies make the batteries easily replaceable, most don't.

For very hot places, we do not recommend battery dashcams, for cool places we also don't recommend them, but at least then they may last several years.

RTC batteries are generally not a problem.

 

[grubisic]

. . .

I am confused by your claim that Viofo will last 20 years and 70mai only 18 months. Both companies are from China, both have a similar reputation, and both have CE (quality certificate) from the EU for almost the same conditions of use . Honestly, I doubt that the rigorous EU would give a quality certificate to a product that will only last 18 months!

 

[Nigel]

I am confused by your claim that Viofo will last 20 years and 70mai only 18 months. Both companies are from China, both have a similar reputation, and both have CE (quality certificate) from the EU for almost the same conditions of use . Honestly, I doubt that the rigorous EU would give a quality certificate to a product that will only last 18 months!

Lots of products with batteries that only last 12 months are certified, the CE mark has nothing to do with quality:

The presence of the CE logo on commercial products indicates that the manufacturer or importer affirms the goods' conformity with European health, safety, and environmental protection standards. It is not a quality indicator or a certification mark.

70mai will last a lot more than 18 months in cool places or if you change the battery when it dies, they are decent cameras, but they do use a lithium battery in conditions unsuitable for lithium batteries. 20 years is probably a bit optimistic for a Viofo dashcam, they do tend to run hot to get high performance, but there aren't any that old yet, so we don't know!

I think in general, Viofo uses better quality components and materials than 70mai, and costs a little more as a result, if you want quality then Viofo is a good choice, 70mai is a cheaper choice.

Being from China says nothing about quality, they have companies with excellent quality and companies with terrible quality, and not much regulation to control quality.

 

[Dashmellow]

If the camera is recording, the for sure it won’t do that powered by the little button battery, so how will it lose time?

The button battery doesn't power the camera, it only acts as a back up power supply for the clock circuitry when the camera is not recording.

There are lots of programming techniques to solve this. Not sure why you think otherwise.

The camera needs to know your time zone in the first place which must be entered manually. No programming technique will automatically know your time zone nor would it be likely or even feasible for a dash cam manufacturer to engage is such programming or devote the camera's processing resources and memory to this task.

the battery has a limited lifetime but made it seem as a non issue since the technology moves such that the consumer would want to upgrade anyway regardless if they want to or not. That is forced obsolescence.

BTW, industry norms are just that. They’re not necessarily driven by what’s best, but rather by price or path of least resistance.

There are reasons for these kinds of industry standards that have nothing to do with "planned obsolescence". Having had experience with dozens of dash cams I have rarely, if ever experienced a dead RTC battery. I still have very old cameras kicking around that will hold the date and time.

Real Time Clock batteries have been standard in all kinds of products for many years because they offer a reliable, reasonably long term solution for maintaining date and time when electronic products are not under their usual source of power. RTC batteries are in alarm clocks, laptop computers, desktop computers, medical instruments, test equipment and all kinds of other electronic products where "planned obsolescence" is not a thing one generally hears. RTC batteries tend to fail more often in dash cams due to the fact that they have to perform in challenging automotive conditions with extreme heat fluctuations, shocks and vibrations and even then failures are not all that common.

 

[Dan2]

The button battery doesn't power the camera, it only acts as a back up power supply for the clock circuitry when the camera is not recording.



The camera needs to know your time zone in the first place which must be entered manually. No programming technique will automatically know your time zone nor would it be likely or even feasible for a dash cam manufacturer to engage is such programming or devote the camera's processing resources and memory to this task.



There are reasons for these kinds of industry standards that have nothing to do with "planned obsolescence". Having had experience with dozens of dash cams I have rarely, if ever experienced a dead RTC battery. I still have very old cameras kicking around that will hold the date and time.

Real Time Clock batteries have been standard in all kinds of products for many years because they offer a reliable, reasonably long term solution for maintaining date and time when electronic products are not under their usual source of power. RTC batteries are in alarm clocks, laptop computers, desktop computers, alarm clocks, medical instruments, test equipment and all kinds of other electronic products where "planned obsolescence" is not a thing one generally hears. RTC batteries tend to fail more often in dash cams due to the fact that they have to perform in challenging automotive conditions with extreme heat fluctuations, shocks and vibrations and even then failures are not all that common.

So much conflation and goal post moving for the sake of arguing.

 

[Dashmellow]

So much conflation and goal post moving for the sake of arguing.

Who, you or me?

You can call it "arguing for arguments sake" and"conflation", but if you make a disdainful, condescending remark suggesting that a widely used electronics industry practice like backing up a device's clock and calendar with a rechargeable battery is just "too bad", you will definitely invite a counter argument.

Seems like Viofo is using a tinny battery. Too bad.

It is always very amusing to see how often some members here on DCT present themselves as knowing far more about the designing, budgeting, engineering, manufacturing and marketing of dash cams than the highly successful manufacturers whose cameras are discussed on this forum on a daily basis.

 

[GPak]

Sorry I brought the RTC battery to this heated discussion.

Now that we have established that the most if not all DVRs are using RTC batteries that can last for years!, the question is why the batteries used in DVR instead of Super Capacitors are failing within 18 month or so.

RTC batteries are Lithium based, they are rechargeable, requiring some sort of battery management and protection circuitry.
The only work (provide power) when DVR is OFF, sometimes for long period of time, but most importantly they are exposed to heat and cold and vibrations associated with in-car operation.

The Battery in place of Capacitors would be in the same environment and work load for that battery is even less compere to RTC, to simply finalize recording and shutdown DVR, working basically only about ±10-15 second at the time.

So, we have two very similar batteries, in the exact same environment, with very similar work load, and yet, one lasts for years and another fails in relatively short period of time.
The only difference I can see is the size of the battery.
Are the laws of physics different for different size batteries? Perhaps small RTC battery is so small that it operates under quantum mechanics laws?
By no means am I against Super Capacitors, once again, just curious.

 

[Elbeau]

It's simply a matter of what the battery is tasked to do. A battery that is only providing back up power for the time and date is under very little internal stress. The main battery/super capacitor is responsible for handling all other camera functions all the time. Including recharging and providing primary power in constantly changing modes. Using a way overpowered super capacitor to handle the simple functions of a watch battery would only increase the size, weight, heat generation and cost of the camera.

 

[Nigel]

The only difference I can see is the size of the battery.

There are other differences. I think the most significant is that the RTC battery gets charged very slowly with a tiny charging current, taking many (maybe 24) hours for a full charge, while the main shutdown battery must be charged before the next camera shutdown, which if it is empty needs to be done sufficiently to power a shutdown before you can start recording (so very fast), which if you have been parked in the sun will be the time that the battery is at its hottest and well above the 45°C maximum for charging lithium batteries. Super capacitors must always be fully charged before starting recording, but they are normally within their charging temperature range, maximum around 90°C. The RTC battery may get charged while very hot, but only gets a tiny amount of charge before the aircon cools the camera.

and work load for that battery is even less compere to RTC, to simply finalize recording and shutdown DVR, working basically only about ±10-15 second at the time.

15 seconds at 5 watts, compared to 15 days at 90 nano watts, no the RTC does far less work! You can see that by comparing the sizes of the batteries, the shutdown battery much bigger even though it will only run for minutes while the RTC will run for weeks.

 

[Dashmellow]

RTC batteries are Lithium based, they are rechargeable, requiring some sort of battery management and protection circuitry.

I'm not 100% certain about what has been used in most dash cams but I know that sometimes Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMh) RTC batteries have been used.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/B07FYWNCVG

Super-capacitors have also been used in dash cams as RTC back-up but they don't hold a charge as long as a battery.

Selecting a Backup Source for Real-Time Clocks​

 

[GPak]

Sorry I brought the RTC battery to this heated discussion.

Okay, you've given me a few reasons why the RTC battery can withstand harsh temperature conditions better than a similar main battery.
While theoretically I'm not entirely convinced, I recognize that most of you have been here much longer than I have, and have much more historical knowledge of actual battery-powered dashcams.

May be it was a bad time to bring it up…

 

[Dashmellow]

Okay, you've given me a few reasons why the RTC battery can withstand harsh temperature conditions better than a similar main battery.
While theoretically I'm not entirely convinced, I recognize that most of you have been here much longer than I have, and have much more historical knowledge of actual battery-powered dashcams.

May be it was a bad time to bring it up…

Despite some friction I don't think it was a bad thing to bring up RTC batteries. It's an interesting discussion.

It's important to note that there is a distinction between battery powered dash cams and RTC batteries since even super-capacitor powered dash cams have RTC batteries.

Those of us who have been around dash cams long enough know that dash cams that have lithium-polymer batteries for saving files at shut down and keeping time and date after power down are best avoided in favor of super-capacitor based ones.

 

[Nigel]

Those of us who have been around dash cams long enough know that dash cams that have lithium-polymer batteries for saving files at shut down and keeping time and date after power down are best avoided in favor of super-capacitor based ones.

And what is your verdict on lithium-ion, since post #1 is about a 70mai A810?

 

[Dashmellow]

And what is your verdict on lithium-ion, since post #1 is about a 70mai A810?

The vast majority of dash cams that are powered by a rechargeable battery rather than a super-capacitor use Lithium-Polymer batteries (LiPo). A few cameras like the 70mai A810 use a proprietary (with wire leads) 14500 (AA size) lithium-ion battery (Li-ion).

Lithium-Polymer batteries are merely a different type of lithium-ion battery that uses a semi-solid gelled polymer electrolyte wrapped in a foil pouch instead of a liquid electrolyte housed inside a sealed cylindrical steel or aluminum tube. The advantage of lithium-polymer for dash cams has traditionally been that they offer higher specific energy and lower weight than cylindrical Li-ion cells and they tend to be less costly to manufacture.

Either way, my answer is the same. Lithium powered dash cams should be avoided due to all their well known drawbacks in an automotive environment compared to super-capacitor based dash cams. This should have been self evident in my post that you quoted.